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Post by lordofdragons on Oct 30, 2016 8:18:17 GMT -5
Falcarius: That's a way to do it. From a more realistic point of view though I think all legs are equally important to run on speed or turning. Interesting what kind of negative effects that had planned. I didn't notice them being there but maybe that's a difference between language versions? Hanyoutai: As it stands right now collision shapes for physics and hit detection are the same. I'm not fond of extra shapes that are smaller as otherwise you get the HL2 problem where you shoot at enemies and they just don't get hit. That said in ZPOC zoids are build of body parts which are individual objects linked. So a hit to the upper leg counts the same as the lower leg. The reason behind this is the following. If you hit the upper leg you damage pistons and joints inside linking the leg to the body. If these get ransacked the entire leg fails to properly move (i'm up to an idea, just wait and see). Now if you hit the feet this can also damage pistons and joints. If the feet get ransacked the entire leg is not functional too since you can't pose weight on the feet any more. So logically hitting the leg at the top or bottom both result in the leg getting unusable. For this reason I think it's acceptable to deal equal damage all across the legs. The legs do make it harder to hit the body but with legs broken and you slowing down it gets easier to pin-point that body part. I think this gives a natural hit behaviour. I think balancing durability of legs against body might help this. That would be a job of Maethius. He's the big stats-juggler around here
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Post by lordofdragons on Oct 30, 2016 13:57:38 GMT -5
Going with that leg problem I've put up now this rule (for 4-legged like liger). One broken leg gives negative effects but you are still operational. Two legs broken and you are in for some big troubles.
I left limping and negative effects out here since I think this needs some modification depending on the ongoing discussion.
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ZPOC
Oct 30, 2016 23:05:11 GMT -5
Post by Hanyoutai on Oct 30, 2016 23:05:11 GMT -5
It's more about how it balances into gameplay than what's logical. Logically, one or two shots will limp anything. With the hit box being the entire leg, it's effectivcely a second HP mechanic. It's going to take damage constantly throughout battle, regardless of aiming. It's just such a big target, after all.
Legs having an armor value works a little, but is hard to balance. Chances are, it's more effective to just shoot anywhere. By the time you limp a Zoid from trying to aim for the legs, you might not have done as much damage as you would've just spamming the bullets. You also would've hit the leg plenty of times with weapon spam.
It might help if weapons were really limited. This was one thing I loved about Infinity, it made you think about what you were spamming. If you overspent, you were screwed for a short time. It made it more exciting because you couldn't spam many things, and had to constantly switch.
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ZPOC
Oct 31, 2016 12:12:53 GMT -5
Post by Maethius on Oct 31, 2016 12:12:53 GMT -5
Game balance is always a fun (and annoying) thing to play with in simulators. For instance, if Zoids were more realistic, a single artillery round sniped into the leg would likely be enough to cripple it. But, just like with an organic being, it really would depend on where the round struck; your leg grazed across the quadriceps would definitely hinder your movement and effect your ability to aim and return fire... your leg with a shattered femur would drop you to the ground like a sack of potatoes! Both are hits on the same limb from the same weapon, but one effect is more severe.
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ZPOC
Oct 31, 2016 16:34:38 GMT -5
Post by lordofdragons on Oct 31, 2016 16:34:38 GMT -5
I think on Zoids this is a bit different. An organic target has a skeleton and damaging bones in the skeleton does put you down. A Zoids though has a mechanical setup where a leg does not simply have a bone inside but instead the entire leg constructing is supporting the body. The joints though are now the dangerous parts. Breaking a joint certainly would put a zoid down. It might be possible to add a kind of "sore spot" at joints so hitting those would deal (I don't know) 2x or 3x damage or something like this. Hitting the leg in general would whittle it down until it breaks while hitting a joint would massively damage it. That would sound better to me than micro-managing part damage.
What goes for ZPOC I do not want players to spam weapons. Even the gauss which is a bullet spammer will be balanced. For example if you see a gauss winding up make a power-turn towards the opponent and put up those shields. It might hold up until the ammo is depleted. Ammo will be certainly sparse. I have in mind to have two limiting factors: ammo count and ammo weight. So you can fill up available ammo slots until they are full or the ammo weight exceeds your carrying capacity. This will prevent players from spamming weapons and force them to think before shooting.
In a nutshell I think those "sore spots" might be a good starting point. Not difficult to implement in the current system and it would punish spammers.
EDIT: So what about the animation? Any comments on those?
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ZPOC
Nov 1, 2016 2:53:32 GMT -5
Post by Hanyoutai on Nov 1, 2016 2:53:32 GMT -5
I really like the idea of an ammo weight to different weapons, since it's not just about using your shots intelligently, but also calculating what is most effective to carry on board.
When the legs are buckling the animation looks amazing. Especially the weakened shaking when it's trying to get back up~ For the final collapse I'd lay the front paws flat on the ground if possible. It'd also add some life to the animation for the head/body to bounce a bit when it hits the ground. A few clips as a rough example.
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ZPOC
Nov 1, 2016 12:34:04 GMT -5
Post by lordofdragons on Nov 1, 2016 12:34:04 GMT -5
Placing the paw flat on the ground is a bit of a technical problem. But maybe I can push the rig a little there.
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ZPOC
Nov 1, 2016 12:47:36 GMT -5
Post by Maethius on Nov 1, 2016 12:47:36 GMT -5
I think the animations are coming along very convincingly! There is almost a shudder of pain before the collapse, which is great.
For the "no weapon spamming" option, a way-back memory comes to me. Long ago I designed a Battletech-like game that I could play with my Zoids. You would use the actual kits as your miniatures, a tape measure to calculated distances, and there were variables for shooter and target speed. You could take a general shot at a Zoid and roll your dice... damage done was based on categorizing the type and size of weapons, and hit points were worked out based on the size of the kit, so a smaller Zoid would have to roll multiple weapons as a salvo in order to deal enough damage to remove a piece of the target. In a general shot the defender would choose what piece to remove; obviously favoring pieces that allowed his unit to remain intact the longest. However, the attacker could elect to shoot at a specific piece with a modifier and speed up the target's decline toward collapse. The amount of damage would still require a salvo on a small vs. large scenario (a Garius would combine all three weapons to deliver 3-points of damage, the amount required to remove 1 piece from a AA-battery kit, like Red Horn). However, for a really high modifier, the shooter could do more damage by targeting the rubber caps... blowing off a cap removed the entire structure it held on, so one shot could potentially remove a Gojulas' entire arm (the leg is held on with 3 caps)
Long story short; if specific joints were targetable hot spots, perhaps a sniper could make an effort to bullseye them. Splash damage could still reduce the life of the joints, so enough missiles striking the same area could potentially blow out multiple hot spots, but it would give snipers some incentive.
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Post by lordofdragons on Nov 1, 2016 15:01:48 GMT -5
I've tried today to get a little idea on how this all could work out. Tried to find a system which balances laser vs HV-bullet vs LV-bullet vs explosion. I think it can work out but I need to lay it out in calc to see things better. My main aim is to have various play styles (and weapon styles) to be reasonable choices (if mastered) instead of the typical zoid game way of having one unit being blatantly overrated. So choose zoids should be more about picking play-style (and fanboying) than picking the most overrated one around the block without turning all weapons similar. Those weak-spots I mentioned will certainly be in it. I've got also something in mind like an additional radar equipment providing a similar weak-spot detection like for example in Dangerous Hunt.
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ZPOC
Nov 2, 2016 10:25:25 GMT -5
Post by Maethius on Nov 2, 2016 10:25:25 GMT -5
Good ideas. It is kind of like the head to head FPS principle; some guys run around using the rocket launcher and splashing an area until his opponent goes down, others prefer the chaingun and hope to chase down and hose the enemy before running out of ammo, others get in closer and rely on the shotgun's spread to reduce the need for accuracy, others use a powerful sniper rifle that requires a high degree of skill but only one shot, and still others forego all of that to charge into the enemy and engage in melee. I play all styles pretty fluidly but I am historically a nightmare with a sniper rifle... even while running evasive maneuvers with someone at melee range.
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Post by lordofdragons on Nov 2, 2016 13:29:59 GMT -5
Well... at school in Unreal Tournament people feared me as soon as I laid my hand on that sniper rile . Good old times... where I actually needed bots on God-Like level to feel a challenge (AI in todays games? pfft... NOTHING!)
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ZPOC
Nov 3, 2016 15:08:04 GMT -5
Post by Maethius on Nov 3, 2016 15:08:04 GMT -5
Exactly; Zoids should feel half like a sim and half like an FPS because the machines move like characters, and weapon choices and skill should really matter in both.
HEAD SHOT! DOUBLE-KILL! TRIPLE-KILL! M-M-M-MONSTER KILL! HEAD HUNTER! GOD-LIKE! WICKED SICK! HOLY $#$&!!! (remember the first time I heard that one using a sniper rifle, too....)
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ZPOC
Nov 3, 2016 15:45:34 GMT -5
Post by lordofdragons on Nov 3, 2016 15:45:34 GMT -5
Never got past the monster kill one... but more because we never had been enough people in the small room to get enough players in front of your sniper rifle in the require time
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ZPOC
Nov 3, 2016 19:56:50 GMT -5
Post by lordofdragons on Nov 3, 2016 19:56:50 GMT -5
That one is tricky. I've added now weak spots and penetration parameter. So each zoid sports on some body parts weak spots which are not all vital ones (like legs). Sniper only has now penetration so only the sniper can "reach" weak spots. Basically reaching and hitting a weak spot insta-wrecks the body-part. So hitting a weak spot on a leg makes the zoid go down like a sack of potatoes while hitting a weak spot on the body or head completely wreck it on the spot. The major problem though is true aiming. The shot camera sits on-top of the weapon so like with a real scope you've got to hold-over. Turns out more complicated than expected. While standing still you get quickly the hang on how to hit the weak spots once you know where they are. While walking stuff starts to get tricky. Running obviously more tricky. Not fully happy with it yet but that can be fixed later on I guess. I've made a little chart of where I placed the weak spots. I've added one for the core (I looked up kit manuals to figure out where those are) and also one in the head. I did not place it where the cockpit is since a zoid can move on it's own so it needs some sort of "brain" even if it is a pure piece of computer somewhere in there. I placed the brain close to where you would expect it on a real animal (close by most of the time). So yes... you can aim for a zoids "brain" now. What you think of the placement. Some mistakes there? (the spots are too small on that image. took it before enlarging them to make it easier to hit them).
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ZPOC
Nov 4, 2016 14:53:43 GMT -5
Post by Maethius on Nov 4, 2016 14:53:43 GMT -5
I recall that a version of Mechwarrior would let you lock onto a weak spot, or you could set the weapon to fire at it (it would literally aim itself and fire only when it had a clear shot, or you could pull the trigger but the lock had a higher chance of being accurate). The system wasn't 100% effective, which, really, would ruin the game if it was.
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