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Oct 26, 2016 11:36:27 GMT -5
Post by lordofdragons on Oct 26, 2016 11:36:27 GMT -5
It's something that's come up as a plot point once or twice. From a game design standpoint it seems like something that would be interesting, but one of those times where realism could make a thing less fun. I think the reason most mech games don't have that feature isn't that it's difficult to program so much as it invites a negative feedback loop- take a hit, more slower, take more hits, even worse performance, then you're shot down. IDK. I had the basic idea that damage would have negative effects on the zoid for two main reasons, which I throw in here for argument: 1) Allow more zoids to be used. A weaker zoid could still be a viable option by first imbuing negative effects on the opponent (less performance, higher system failure rate, disabling weapons and so forth) and thus avoiding the need to pick the strongest (number wise) zoid to not get your arse handed to you. The negative effects on equipment is kinda decided but I had not been sure if negative effects on the zoid itself (legs in this case) make sense. 2) Forcing the player to actively avoid spamming the same attack pattern all the time. Getting damaged would force a player to switch tactics to still win it over. So he would be forced to carefully choice the tactics to use. As mentioned I'm a bit undecided if (in addition to the rest) movement penalties should be part of the show or not. Can damage on zoid legs really cause such restrictions or is it too far fetched? I think the VS series does this (or I might just be bad at it ). It certainly has a display in the corner to show how much damage each body part has taken. No, as far as I know VS series had no negative effects for damaged body parts. Actually I have no idea what this display up there is supposed to help or if it is just for show. Maybe a feature never implemented and just left in for show. You perform more or less the same at 1% HP as on 100% HP.
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Oct 26, 2016 11:40:53 GMT -5
Post by Maethius on Oct 26, 2016 11:40:53 GMT -5
If I remember correctly WAAAAAY back in the days of the C=64 game you could get pummeled near to death, find a quiet spot, and your Zoid would slowly heal back up, its systems coming back online one at a time based on how damaged they were. That would be a viable option, as well. Another option would be that a system could have a "wounded" state and a "dead" state... if your leg takes 75% damage it can heal with time or resources, but if you take 100% damage then the leg is either useless forever or blown off; either way it is beyond healing.
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Oct 26, 2016 11:51:31 GMT -5
Post by lordofdragons on Oct 26, 2016 11:51:31 GMT -5
So what do you think? Damaged/broken legs... physical negative effects yes or no? I absolutely would; slowness at least. If you could make the Zoid stagger or limp realistically, that would be great as well. The point of Zoids is that they function as living things and as weapon platforms, so having one drag a leg or jerk with a limp would be realistic, and it would make evasion and targeting much harder. Short of like "The Specialists". How about this. One thing I have so far is that if a leg breaks and now half or more legs are broken the legs buckle and the zoid topples over. You can get up on your feet but you are a sicking duck for a few seconds until. My first idea had been a gradual decrease in speed as damage level goes up. Looking at that scenario you outline I could imagine something like this. If this more-than-half-legs-broken rule kicks in I could strip the zoid of fast running and give it a sort of slow limping running. Not quite sure about the details here, just rolling the idea around a bit to see if it picks up some dirt. Another solution I twiddled around on paper would be using failure rates. Basically this would mean the speed gets reduced the more the legs damage. Furthermore the failure rate increases with damage. Failure rate here would mean the mechanics can randomly fail to properly function. So as an example if running it works (but slower) but the chance of the legs buckling and the zoid stagger to keep up would increase. A random stagger would impede the running (like falling back to walking speed then ramping up again) and throw off aiming. What you think of these two possibilities?
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Oct 26, 2016 11:55:10 GMT -5
Post by lordofdragons on Oct 26, 2016 11:55:10 GMT -5
If I remember correctly WAAAAAY back in the days of the C=64 game you could get pummeled near to death, find a quiet spot, and your Zoid would slowly heal back up, its systems coming back online one at a time based on how damaged they were. That would be a viable option, as well. Another option would be that a system could have a "wounded" state and a "dead" state... if your leg takes 75% damage it can heal with time or resources, but if you take 100% damage then the leg is either useless forever or blown off; either way it is beyond healing. I'm a bit reluctant to auto-healing mostly because in games in the recent couple of years this got abused to a point it's not funny any more. Which though doesn't mean there is the possibility to find a middle ground which is not annoying. Concerning the wounded and dead state I've got something in my design doc. But it's a bit early to outline in detail but it can prevent you using your beloved zoid for some time if you are not careful.
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Post by SteelRain on Oct 26, 2016 12:40:39 GMT -5
The Mechwarrior games, I think, do it pretty well - destroy a weapon, that weapon's gone for good, badly damage a limb, that limb's limping. Here's a good, informative LP of Mechwarrior 4 Mercenaries if you're interested; www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLAbBbUHr6js2r1HmtY8S50Xsrc-FkjEc1 In particular, there's lots of combat in the 'Solaris Special' videos in that playlist, if you'd rather skip right to the action.
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Oct 26, 2016 13:18:19 GMT -5
Post by Maethius on Oct 26, 2016 13:18:19 GMT -5
Mechwarrior came to my mind, too. As far as scaling damage, you would also lose movements like jumping, or perhaps even climbing terrains over a certain angle of incline, etc.
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Oct 26, 2016 15:20:11 GMT -5
Post by lordofdragons on Oct 26, 2016 15:20:11 GMT -5
I guess these effects happen more for badly damaged body parts while medium damage does not yet give a problem?
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Oct 26, 2016 15:53:30 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by SteelRain on Oct 26, 2016 15:53:30 GMT -5
Yup - 'mechs don't start limping until one leg is in the black ('destroyed', technically, but it's still there), and weapons are only disabled when they're completely destroyed. You could do it differently, of course.
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Oct 26, 2016 17:08:19 GMT -5
Post by lordofdragons on Oct 26, 2016 17:08:19 GMT -5
What goes for weapons I had the idea that (similar to games like STALKER) weapons with increasing damage start to miss-fire (or get less accurate) more frequently until totally becoming defunct if destroyed. The advantage of such a system would be that negative effects don't just pop up out of nowhere from a certain damage level onwards but still start getting more and more annoying if you don't pay attention to your zoid.
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Post by lordofdragons on Oct 27, 2016 15:28:53 GMT -5
No idea how a zoid would limp so... a quick and dirty test.
Not sure if this feature would be great in the end. I'm onto something else at the time being but let's think about this a bit more.
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Oct 27, 2016 15:53:34 GMT -5
Post by SteelRain on Oct 27, 2016 15:53:34 GMT -5
I love this! The shifting of the weight looks really good, and I like how you animated both a back limb and front limb limp. If you're still looking to work on it, here's a video of a cougar with bad knee problems - his limp is very distinctive and clearly chronic rather than from immediate injury, but you might find it interesting. (Some people might find this upsetting, so don't watch if you don't like the sound of it, but Mickey Cougar is well looked-after and well-loved at BCR)
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Oct 28, 2016 9:44:17 GMT -5
Post by Maethius on Oct 28, 2016 9:44:17 GMT -5
I think the limp is good, but I think it almost has to be a bit more extreme; like the Zoid can't place any weight on one leg and has to hop on the good one to remain in motion or upright (favoring a leg). At the stables where my daughter rides horses, their dog got a little too playful and a little too close to one of the horses and got kicked. For three weeks he ran around almost normally on his front paws but hopped on his rear right leg, his left toes held off the ground almost entirely.
Poor cougar! I always have to remember that when we see animals in conditions like this that in nature they would just degrade until they die. Humans (well, most of them, I believe) have a soft spot and care for animals and take action to ease their suffering, so Mickey is cared for but to some people looks neglected in his enclosure... in nature, he wouldn't last long.
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Oct 28, 2016 11:04:24 GMT -5
Post by lordofdragons on Oct 28, 2016 11:04:24 GMT -5
That sounds more like a totally broken leg that is not working any more. That would be then sort of like a neighbour's cat. A cat ran into it on the street some years ago and since the she's got only 3 limbs left (front right one gone). That kind of movement impediment would be possible too.
What I'm afraid off in that situation though is what happens if for example both front legs get sacked. A player unable to move would be a problem if he has to get to some target spot but sort of wasted an enemy while at the same time getting both his front legs sacked. He can't move but no other enemy is nearby to rough him up. I could make an additional loosing condition if the zoid turns immobile.
Actually that might be an option as a sort of additional winning condition not requiring to crack open a heavily protected zoid which might be difficult to do. If you manage to break enough of its legs to turn it into a sitting duck unable to pose a treat any more to you. Sort of like a "pacifistic" solution to winning a battle. But that might be a bit far fetched and unrealistic. I'm rather undecided about this all yet.
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Oct 30, 2016 4:48:40 GMT -5
Post by Falcarius on Oct 30, 2016 4:48:40 GMT -5
I think the VS series does this (or I might just be bad at it ). It certainly has a display in the corner to show how much damage each body part has taken. No, as far as I know VS series had no negative effects for damaged body parts. Actually I have no idea what this display up there is supposed to help or if it is just for show. Maybe a feature never implemented and just left in for show. You perform more or less the same at 1% HP as on 100% HP. I checked the manuals, and getting down to "red" health on specific body parts does indeed affect movement. Head damage makes it harder to run straight, body damage slows down your "Option" recovery rate, foreleg damage makes you worse at turning, and hindleg damage slows you down. Just something else to add to all the interesting ideas so far.
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Oct 30, 2016 5:35:28 GMT -5
Post by Hanyoutai on Oct 30, 2016 5:35:28 GMT -5
EDIT: Ooorrr scratch this whole post, because Proboards didn't take me to the last page so it's rather outdated, haha.
This did surface once or twice in the anime, like when RD's Liger Zero gets the leg pipe sliced and can't walk. I do agree it could be obnoxious, though.
Zoids are blocks. Most people would just aim at the general vicinity of the body and spam shots. With no skill whatsoever, they are very likely to get lucky and damage the leg since they take up so much of the main mass. A stumble might be a nice effect if the hitbox were located near the feet, or another constantly moving part that you're very likely to miss. Shots that cause vulnerabilities for the remainder of battle should not be easy, from a gameplay standpoint.
Locational damage might be a better way to handle it? More damage based on where you shoot the Zoid. A few harder to hit targets, such as near the core, cockpit, etc. that'd deal higher damage. Maybe lower damage on heavily armored parts (thickly armored liger manes, bladey shoulder armor, etc.)
EDIT 2: Now that I've caught up, the limp does look excellent! Perhaps it could be under a certain % HP they begin to limp? If it's just from hitting legs, I still recommend a much smaller hitbox than the entire leg, which would still just encourage weapon spam.
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