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ZPOC
Mar 13, 2014 13:52:46 GMT -5
Post by Maethius on Mar 13, 2014 13:52:46 GMT -5
In the first rendition it seemed very small on the screen; a trick with 3D rendering, I know, but the later versions it seems the console is larger or closer to the pilot. Multiple pilot stations would rock! Just remember that you have to have a solo player contingency.
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ZPOC
Apr 26, 2014 18:51:32 GMT -5
Post by lordofdragons on Apr 26, 2014 18:51:32 GMT -5
Long delay on this post, sorry about that. I had been busy with engine work (as in (LINK) and (LINK) ) so I didn't get around honking around here. Anyways I've put up some experiments like (LINK-IMAGE) I want to play around with. Putting together a bit the damage system I came across this website . What intersts me now is if the information contained in there is accurate (if something like accurate actually applies to Zoids altogether). I gathered the following damage types. Anything wrong with that list? BallisticStuff like teeth poking holes, claws ripping armor, tails smashing armor, bullets, slugs or shrapnels from explosions. Just anything that tries to penetrate armor with blunt force. Impulse [m*v] is the damage dealing parameter (or just force [F]?). EnergyLasers, beams or shock canons. Just anything that focuses on delivering high energy density on a target to inflict damage. Energy [J] is the damage dealing parameter. ElectricityAnything delivering high voltage at a target. Electric charge [C] is the damage dealing parameter. HeatFlamethrowers and super hot blades. Just anything delivering intense heat. Temperature [C°] is the damage dealing parameter. BlastRockets, grenades or just anything that blows up in your face. Pressure [Pa] is the damage dealing parameter. Charged ParticlesThis seems to be something special... like a BFG for Zoids. Doesn't count as energy damage, does it? Furthermore I extracted this weapon category list. Here too, anything wrong? MeleeStuff like teeth poking holes, claws ripping armor or tails smashing armor. Deals "Ballistic" damage and optionally "Energy" or "Electricity" (laser blades?). BallisticGauss, vulcan or snipers. Anything that spits bullets or slugs. Deals "Ballistic" damage and optionally "Blast" damage (explosive rounds for example). LaserFast and accurate. No area damage. Deals moderate "Energy" damage. BeamSlower and less accurate. Area damage. Deals strong "Energy" damage. ShockAir compression based weapons. Barely visible. Deals moderate "Blast" damage. MissilesYou name it... goes kaboom! Deals "Blast" and "Ballistic" damage (shrapnels) Charged Particles WeaponsDeals "Charged Particle" damage. I guess this one is slow and not too accurate but blows you out of your socks. There's also armor list but I think that's more or less according to the above list of damage types. So what you think, does this cover the basics? I'm not going for the full picture since the Zoids franchise went overboard like most long running franchises. I'm more after a reasonably small set to experiment around with a bit.
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ZPOC
Apr 27, 2014 14:09:57 GMT -5
Post by Snowflake on Apr 27, 2014 14:09:57 GMT -5
Charged particle cannons (or properly, SUPERcharged particle cannons) are basically plasma, so yeah giving them their own category sounds good, that or you can make it a combination of electrical and energy damage. I think you should have heat-damage too though. A lot of zoids have specific heat-abating equipment (vents etc) and a few zoids use flamethrowers.. plus blade liger's blades and liger zero's claws charge up with some kind of energy too, which i always assumed to be heat a la heat hawks in gundam.
'shock cannons' or impact cannons are just firing a powerful compressed blast of air or maybe subsonic sound, because in the anime at least they fire what looks just like an invisible disturbance in the air, and they hit really hard.. like a heavy physical blow without a lot of kinetic energy behind it
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ZPOC
Apr 29, 2014 17:08:29 GMT -5
Post by lordofdragons on Apr 29, 2014 17:08:29 GMT -5
Plasma could be even heat I guess. In a fusion reactor the heat of the plasma would be devastating. I guess a Zoid would use something similar to a fusion reactor to fire of a plasma projectile? Adding fire/heat damage sounds good. I don't remember though any zoids games ever having used flamethrowers. Did they do this in the animé or is this more of a theoretical ability?
I like the idea of shock cannons firing nearly invisible projectiles. Makes it very hard to defend against those projectiles. As a counter measure though I imagine the impact should be not as devastating as a missile or strong beam cannon hit since you can't see those air projectiles well. From the damage point of view I would say it's "blast" damage since air/sound compression/expansion would be a pressure change resulting in the damage. Sounds to me the same as what a missile does just without the added shrapnel damage. I've augmented the previous post with it.
Any other ideas?
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ZPOC
Apr 30, 2014 12:45:58 GMT -5
Post by Maethius on Apr 30, 2014 12:45:58 GMT -5
A note on Lasers; they deal HEAT damage, not energy damage. They might use energy like ammo, but lasers deal their pain by melting the crap out of the target by producing sun-like heat.
Bullets, blasts, and melee all essentially do kinetic damage; a solid object slamming into another solid object.
Technically (and we are being literal, here!) a particle cannon is a kinetic/heat weapon. It uses particles (physical mass) directed into a target with fantastic speed; this does damage akin to a liquid metal jet of constant physical damage while superheating the surface with both friction and through the carrier beam itself. You could call it plasma, if you like however....
Plasma is essentially a superheated electrical state, dealing conductive electrical damage and heat.
I did quite a study on sci-fi weapons vs. real world physics for developing a game; your best bet with a game like this is to just stick with what people expect. After all, according to what we know of physics the very best and most effective weapon we know of is ... the bullet. That is, the raw power of delivering a dense mass with extreme velocity is the best way to mangle a single target. Vaporize a city? Sure, use a nuke, but put a hole in a battleship? Super-accelerate a 100-pound piece of tungsten.
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ZPOC
Apr 30, 2014 13:49:13 GMT -5
Post by lordofdragons on Apr 30, 2014 13:49:13 GMT -5
The question here is what people expect or rather what the designer had in mind... "if" he had something coherent in mind. The games I've seen so far usually do not more than "melee / bullet / laser / missle" with a one-HP system which is a basic system. Nothing wrong with a basic system but in terms of zoids games I think it has been utterly overdone. You have like 2 or 3 different games cloned multiple times with little changes. It's mostly about choosing the one insta-hit weapon with the highest damage number. Some variation in damage types and protection could make load-outs more interesting. But for that I've to understand first better what's around in the zoid universe to begin with.
Concerning lasers I don't know what exactly they are supposed to represent in the zoids universe. From images and videos I've seen so far impacts seem to have an explosion nature to them which makes me assume it's mostly based on energy discharge. I did not get the impression so far on lasers in zoids acting similar to LASER in physics. But I could be wrong about that one.
What goes for bullets, blasts and melee I think it is reasonable to make a distrinction. Bullets pierce applying huge amount of force on a tiny spot. Melee rips and tears. For me that's more of a blunt force approach which even potentially rips something out of a target instead of pushing in. Blast on the other hand doesn't even have solid matter to begin with as it's change in air pressure applying force on a target. Besides bullets affect a tiny spot, melee a large area and blasts even go around corners. But yeah, in the end all applies force of one kind or the other to a target. If it makes sense though to transport that distinction to a game is a different topic. It certainly would serve a good way to categorize weapons and attacks. I anyways don't plan to use the physical parameters there. I just put it up there as a reference sort of thing.
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DarthPardus
Corporal
Tell it to my gun barrel, jerk!
Posts: 157
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ZPOC
May 3, 2014 14:35:53 GMT -5
Post by DarthPardus on May 3, 2014 14:35:53 GMT -5
Maethius, I wanted to chime in here....very late if you will....about the earlier movement discussion. You stated that the M1A1 was topped out at 67mph. I take it that is the official stat. As former US Army, I can tell you that these guys in the field often disable those governers to limit the top end. That big bugger has done in excess of 90 mph across the dunes, clearing hills with a twenty foot or longer jump. Those turbine engines are scary. Now imagine if you had your brain transplanted into a cybernetic body. Realistically, an organic brain will make the absolute utmost of any body function even if it is mechanical. To me, I would think many of the ground speeds recorded for zoids could be met if you have a organic brain compensating where needed to pull out the most out of a physical powertrain, especially if designed to mimic or surpass the original organic body. Many people with prosthesis are prime examples.
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ZPOC
May 5, 2014 12:08:06 GMT -5
Post by Maethius on May 5, 2014 12:08:06 GMT -5
Lordofdragons- I think that the "lasers" we see in most series are what were labeled more accurately in Star Wars as "blasters" - a form of encapsulated energy wave that "breaks apart" upon impact with a sort of energy explosion dealing a superheated/kinetic injury. I tend to think more literally about weapons and armor these days (look at the write-ups for my customs on my Age of War site and you'll see a lot about calibers, ranges, ammo composition, guidance systems, etc.) but a lot of it is "dumbed down" to more easily fit in with the Zoids universe. The idea that a Zoid has a 120mm gun that has less than a 5km range and lacks the power to kill a 75-ton target in one hit is kinda silly to me. Ever play Battletech? I love that game, but the instant you begin to apply any level of logic it's really terrible (an AC5 dealt 5 points of damage at a range of 18, but an AC20 deals 20 points of damage only to a range of 9?! By that logic, the Yamato's 18" guns would have a range of about 10 meters!) DarthPardus- Good call; yes, that stat was just from the "public domain" published stats... kinda like a nuclear carrier with a cruise speed of 20+ knots. I wonder what kinds of performance we would see in even modern weapons with human-linked brains directly in charge, but without the body limitations in place. For instance, what could an F-22 do as a UAV? It's daunting to think about!
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ZPOC
May 5, 2014 18:05:03 GMT -5
Post by lordofdragons on May 5, 2014 18:05:03 GMT -5
Concerning lasers this seems to make sense. The damage type of a beam projectile (if we want to call it a projectile for simplicity purpose) could be "blast" and "heat". But I could imagine an energy erruption like that could easily disturb the electrics in a target sort of like an EMP. On the other hand if you face weapons like that and you have access to crazy materials then you might be also able to build up some defense that reduce the effect. Taking the parameters too precise though could quickly complicate things a lot. I'm certainly not going to venture down that laneas I prefer a system where you can come up with load-out plans without being a quantum physicists. I never played battletech or other games oriented on western robots. They bored the hell out of me since one bot just looks like the 10 other bots around just with different stats. Stuff like Zoids had been more interest to me from the basic idea since there is a lot more variation and totally different bots that actually inspire in me ideas in contrary to the monotonous western style bots I've come to know so far. It doesn't have to be logic if the balancing is good and the available bots and equipment allows for play-style variaty that actually matters. Not that zoid "games" ever managed to do this. One of the main reasons I do this little experiment of mine to see what different routes could lead you to. Concerning human brain directly interfacing with a machine I don't think the performance would be better. I would say it's worse than manual input. The mind would be bombarded with information related to a body not fitting the one you live with. Even if you can acustom to the machine over years of training you can't be faster than what the machine can do. If you have a slow Zoid (and with that size in real life you would be slow) then you can't move it faster than it could move on it's own. I could imagine a voice-control unit is at least as usefull but less intrusive. Throw in something like K.I.T.T. that can also think and act on it's own and you might very well beat the mind-machine trick. That said how would it be if Zoids had a K.I.T.T. like interface? You would have a talking side-kick that helps in combat. Maybe a strange idea but for some reason I like the sound of it
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ZPOC
May 6, 2014 12:41:34 GMT -5
Post by Maethius on May 6, 2014 12:41:34 GMT -5
Weapons: I say keep it simple. The key for me has always been that there should be a reason for the weapon. In DOOM, the original FPS title, there were far fewer weapons than in games today, but each of them had such a different application that it made them all necessary: fist, chainsaw, pistol, shotgun, chaingun, rocket launcher, plasma gun, BFG. I see no need to have 10 kinds of cannons on Zoids that deliver only a 10% variation in range, damage, or accuracy. Again, in Battletech, there was the AC2 autocannon which gave you enormous range but tiny damage, then the AC5, AC10, and AC20, which could rip a mech in half at close range. I could see a spread like that among Zoid weapons:
Projectile Cannon = 5, 10, 20, 30 damage Energy weapon = 5, 10, 20, 30, etc....
The other aspect I would approach would be the purpose of the damage types. In my world I classified them this way:
Projectiles = deliver the most damage, have decent accuracy, and decent range (much harder to aim down field), limited by ammo, penetrate e-shields (in my world, energy shields were 100% effective against energy weapons and only about 10% - 25% against projectiles)
Energy Weapons = deliver average damage but very heavy up close, range falls off dramatically, extremely accurate, requires some charge up/cool down time, limited by high energy use
Missiles = Deliver extreme damage on impact with splash potential, extremely accurate (smart/guided), extreme ranges, limited by ammo
I think a good way to think of the interface would be a bit like K.I.T.T. or JARVIS from Iron Man. In my little world, Zoids began mostly as simple machine-animals, but those used by the military emulated them. My story focuses on a technology known as AI2, or Artificial Intelligence And Instinct, that eventually grows to become human-like personalities for the machines. I believe the European concept was that the Zoids themselves were characters (Krark, Prince of Darkness being a lead villain). So it really depends on how you wish to pursue it.
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ZPOC
May 14, 2014 15:52:41 GMT -5
Post by lordofdragons on May 14, 2014 15:52:41 GMT -5
Okay, some more silence time due to main project. I really have my head everywhere recently. The day has 24 hours and then there's also the night... *.* . Anyways... I moved the important parts in this topic into a game design document just so the ideas and views don't get lost. Concerning the weapons I'm certainly for keeping it simple. I don't want a huge arsenal of weapons. Modders and addOnErs are better suited for that task . I like the view of uping the effectiveness of bullet based weapons. In next to all Zoids games I've seen bullet based weapons had been the most pathetic and useless weapons you question why they put them in in the first place. In general your view lines up with what I had in mind especially taking distance into account for energy based weapons. This balances them out so you can't just snipe all time without having any skills at all. I also plan on making energy weapons finite not infinite ammo. Think like requiring a heavy energy storage to be planted in the Zoid to power the gun. This extra weight would be a performance penalty like having to carry lots of bullets for other weapons. This way energy based weapons are not the total win as they are in other Zoids games. Another idea I had is making Zoids loaded out with lots of energy tanks (for energy weapons) to be more harmed by energy based weapons (think like energy leaks or tank instablity). You had then to choose between that nice energy damage you can deal and the risk of getting ass-kicked with your Zoid packed full with burstable energy tanks . I think that should add to it. Concerning the AI did you allow your Zoids to talk? I sort of had in mind to give them a sort of voice through their interface to create a bit a more closer relationship between a man and his machine. Before I forget... another ZPOC. This time experimenting with a run animation together with forces acting on the pilot. For this one I made the animation different with a new little set of options in the export scripts to help animators. Aiming is tricky with afixed weapons but that's realistic and will be balanced by having more punch for the money. So for the bigger guns to hit you would have to slow down or grinding to a halt to fire them precisely leaving you open to hits like a sitting duck. Adjustable weapons allow then to better aim while running but do not provide that much punch. I aimed for a more feline motion but that liger is constructed in a way the running I made would be totally impossible. The legs penetrate the body and the other legs. That would never work in real life . PS. And yes... I *Watch your language!* love the black painted liger. Much cooler than the original blue one... and hard to spot while hiding in shadows (I'm a sucker for sniping )
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ZPOC
May 16, 2014 13:13:02 GMT -5
Post by Maethius on May 16, 2014 13:13:02 GMT -5
Some interesting stuff here, to be sure. Did you ever play the ancient Zoids game on the Commodore 64? You would collect energy pods on occasion (usually from destroyed Molgas)... perhaps this could be an extension of that concept. The idea that a projectile weapon carries a limited number of rounds in a magazine and an energy weapon carries a limited number of rounds in a battery is a good one to consider. In Mechwarrior your energy weapons were limitless, but that game tracks heat as a limitation, and beam cannons cause a lot of heat. Perhaps an idea might be between the two technologies; give the energy weapons a battery/capacitor bank that recharges over time, so you can drain it with a lot of use but you are not left in the middle of a game without ANY ammo at all.
In my world the older, simpler Zoids would communicate much like R2-D2 in Star Wars. No, they wouldn't chirp and beep. They would make mechanical animal sounds, but in the cockpit was a readout that translated what they said to the pilots. As the AI2 system evolved they began to communicate with pilots as equals, carrying on conversations in or out of the cockpit.
The animations are looking very slick! I would love to see a Zoid able to make a power turn, but these look smooth and well executed!
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ZPOC
May 18, 2014 10:57:57 GMT -5
Post by lordofdragons on May 18, 2014 10:57:57 GMT -5
Some interesting stuff here, to be sure. Did you ever play the ancient Zoids game on the Commodore 64? You would collect energy pods on occasion (usually from destroyed Molgas)... perhaps this could be an extension of that concept. The idea that a projectile weapon carries a limited number of rounds in a magazine and an energy weapon carries a limited number of rounds in a battery is a good one to consider. In Mechwarrior your energy weapons were limitless, but that game tracks heat as a limitation, and beam cannons cause a lot of heat. Perhaps an idea might be between the two technologies; give the energy weapons a battery/capacitor bank that recharges over time, so you can drain it with a lot of use but you are not left in the middle of a game without ANY ammo at all. In my world the older, simpler Zoids would communicate much like R2-D2 in Star Wars. No, they wouldn't chirp and beep. They would make mechanical animal sounds, but in the cockpit was a readout that translated what they said to the pilots. As the AI2 system evolved they began to communicate with pilots as equals, carrying on conversations in or out of the cockpit. The animations are looking very slick! I would love to see a Zoid able to make a power turn, but these look smooth and well executed! I think I've seen images but I didn't play Zoids games that old. The oldes I've had in my hands so far had been from GameBoy if I'm not mistaken. But the idea sounds good. I'm not fond of the recharge idea since it's something that ruined next to all recent games since game-devs suddenly started thinking auto-healing is the new *Watch your language!* :/ . But I could imagine something a bit different like having the possibility to buy a recharger for your zoid. The upside is that it charges your weapons slowly over time but the down-side is a considerable weight increase having negative impact on combat. I mean have you ever had a Universal Power Supply in your hands? Lots of power but helluva heavy . I find the idea of cockpit conversation with your zoid intriguing too. I'm certainly going down that route. Power-turn would be nice... just the pilot inside would be smacked around a lot . By the way. I've noticed there's also some forum around, zoids poison or something like that. Is the community here and there mostly the same or could I get additional feedback by duplicating a topic there?
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ZPOC
May 19, 2014 23:57:37 GMT -5
Post by Maethius on May 19, 2014 23:57:37 GMT -5
Power-turn could disorient the player (blurred screen, etc.) unless he invested in a g-suit. Maybe that's why the Zoid pilot figures wear astronaut-looking suits with armored shoulders... to make high energy maneuvers without getting pummeled!
I can see not wanting to recharge weapons as you described, but I would think of it this way... if a gun takes 100% of a charge to fire, the recharge rate would only be about 5% per minute unless you drop to the ground into full recovery mode, and then the rate could double (you are still talking about 10 minutes of sitting around just to fire that gun again!) The thing about that old Zoid game was that it really had some fascinating concepts for resource management... you had to determine how much power would go into shields and which components would be protected the most (movement, manipulation, communications, sensors, your Zoid's brain, or specific weapons). You would self-heal, that's been a part of Zoids since the beginning, from what I can tell, but it was a long, long process and it was a last ditch effort to survive.
On the forum front, ZP has become the #1 community, from what I can tell. There is some duplicate traffic there, but you will gain many new views (I notice this thread is pretty much a conversation between the two of us!)
I miss the old days.... /sigh
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ZPOC
May 20, 2014 11:59:15 GMT -5
Post by lordofdragons on May 20, 2014 11:59:15 GMT -5
I like the idea behind it. Mind telling me a bit more (if you remember that is). I can then see what would be used one way or the other. I certainly think taking your suit into account is a good idea. I though also about the helmets. I've noticed some pilots wear helmets while others don't. I imagine the helmets could provide combat support but on the other hand induce some handicap of some sorts (I don't know... like more narrow field of view or alike). Certainly ideas.
Concerning the ZP I can't seem to get an answer on my registration. I also attempted to mail liemzoids@zoidspoison.com but the mail address is not existing. Any ideas?
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