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ZPOC
Jan 19, 2014 19:49:05 GMT -5
Post by lordofdragons on Jan 19, 2014 19:49:05 GMT -5
This is my first post here so please be gentle if I do something wrong (hopefully not). I've searched around a bit for places where I might find people with good knowledge about Zoids in general and I somehow ended up in this forum. As I see it forums about Zoids are mostly about model kit talk but hopefully somebody can help me out with these "special" questions anyways. As you might have guessed by now my question is not directly about a model kit itself. As a side project I'm doing a POC (proof of concept) game design toying around with some ideas. For this purpose I would like to finish up a Shield Liger model I started creating a long time ago for learning purpose. Maybe somebody came across this image somewhere else. > hangar-render test scene (click "download" button for the full size view) It started with a high-detail model learning in Blender and then somehow grew into a Game-POC over time. Right now I'm preparing this model to be operational for my POC. But I've got some problems with the missing details. I've worked of reference images I found around the net including model kits but some parts I could not figure out (or not well enough). So I've got right now two main questions which maybe somebody can help me with. First the cockpit. Right now it look like this: > cp1.jpg > cp2.jpg > in-game view (click "view original" for full size) I sort of guessed my way around this one with images from the tv show (I've never seen a single episode just found some stills). The drawing style there though is very simplistic so I couldn't get a grasp. The only thing I know well are the various zoids games but cockpit renders are not included there either. So I invented stuff on my own like the handles and the monitors but I would like to get a more correct look of the cockpit if this is even possible. Are the cockpits in the model kits actual detailed enough to give some more detail information? Or have cockpits actually never really been detailed out enough and guessing around is the only option? The second part is more of a conceptional question. Playing around with the model I ended up with a night scene and questioned myself if Zoids even have head-lights of some sort and if yes how and where? I made two mockups how I would envision potential head-lights: > lights1.jpg > lights2.jpgDo you know if one of these are used on model kits or the tv shows or do they use totally something else? After all they don't duke it out only in daylight I guess I've you have some ideas to help me finish up that model I'm all ears. Thanks in advance. EDIT: Sorry for this multi-edits but the links keep messing up and preview button doesn't work on my firefox (driving me crazy )
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ZPOC
Jan 20, 2014 19:50:34 GMT -5
Post by rhasputin on Jan 20, 2014 19:50:34 GMT -5
I'd put the headlights in the ears! Good job
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DarthPardus
Corporal
Tell it to my gun barrel, jerk!
Posts: 157
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ZPOC
Jan 20, 2014 20:00:27 GMT -5
Post by DarthPardus on Jan 20, 2014 20:00:27 GMT -5
Your best option is to look over the highly detailed HMM Koto kits for the Shieldy. They have small transparent headlamp glass pieces in the front of the forward torso. They have the same bits slightly smaller facing rear. The desert version came in clear and green pieces.
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ZPOC
Jan 21, 2014 12:50:21 GMT -5
Post by lordofdragons on Jan 21, 2014 12:50:21 GMT -5
rhasputin: What you men with "in the ears"? Can you explain how you envision this to work with the ear openings pointing sideways away from body direction? DarthPardus: I googled around a bit and fell on some images. Now I remeber this kit. I've come across images of said kit already earlier in the process of looking for reference images. Personally I don't like the new kit compared to the original one as it is sort of skinny, looks brittle and somehow lacks the punch I expect from a mech. That and the head/cockpit is very narrow. The head seems to be more squeezed along the X axis compared to the original kit. Anyways I found a bunch of images but only with partial luck so far. This image to start: > rear-endI see the rear-lights. This just made me laughing though. I mean, for what needs a Zoid rear-lights like a car? Like in the night telling your enemies "hey! here is my ass! please shoot it up!" ... *lol*. I don't know if I should add that unless these are not supposed to be rear-lights to begin with. With the head-lights though I've not found anything useful directly. These images show are what I found: > head1 > head2The first head shows no signs of head-light things neither on the front side of the head nor on the front side of the body below. Mythbusters would call this busted by now but I don't stop here. The second image contains some interesting dents near the edge of the head front side. Could this be an indication of head-lights? Or is this something else like the various dents not seeming to have a purpose? I think though the head-lights could be snuck into the model at this place. Maybe as two smaller pieces at the side of the head front or one larger field in the middle? What you think makes more sense with Zoids having a double head-light like a car or a single middle head-light like a train? Now concerning the cockpit I found these images: > cockpit1 > cockpit2It looks very narrow. Only one person fits in there whereas in my version I deduced from the original model two people would fit next to each other. Is the scale off in the model kit or is the head slim? I used a game character from me to get a realistic size of the cockpit seat and controls. The width of the metal frame seems similar. I somehow dislike being squeezed into a narrow cockpit if I can have a more spacy one Anything a Zoids cockpit needs that I missed? EDIT: I noticed in the front shots that the HMM one is missing the cannon like black thing in the mouth area. Does the SL in the animé have such a cannon in the mouth and is it actually used? I can't rember any Zoids game having used that cannon in the mouth there. Should I remove it?
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ZPOC
Jan 21, 2014 15:33:03 GMT -5
Post by Maethius on Jan 21, 2014 15:33:03 GMT -5
Hello, LordofDragons, I always figured the lights you see on the HMM kits are like those on actual military vehicles; aircraft have formation lights just as ground vehicles have have corner lights. These are usually used to guide our forces within the confines or our bases to while in transit; a stealth fighter aircraft still has them, but they are turned off when in hostile territory. Just like some features of modern vehicles, lamps and access ladders and hatches can be closed while the vehicle is in use. You could always take the point that these items lock into armored panels while not in use. Cockpit item you might consider would be a console. Some Zoids have consoles that lock down on the lap of the pilot like a restraint and give the pilot access to physical controls. Though most kits lack them, I think they really add to a Zoid's details and are great functionally. Welcome to Pheno's!
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ZPOC
Jan 22, 2014 3:39:29 GMT -5
Post by Falcarius on Jan 22, 2014 3:39:29 GMT -5
For the 'headlights' question: the only time I recall seeing Zoids with definite lights that haven't been added afterwards (like the spotlight-carrying Rev Raptors in Chaotic Century) would be Mosasledge's lights in this video, although I'm not too familiar with the HMM line. After some searching, I found that you can clearly see the forward lights on the HMM Shield Liger's torso in this photo... but then the head goes on, and the mane covers them almost completely. Great design work there, Kotobukiya I guess in most of the Zoids fiction, not being seen is a higher priority than seeing where you're going at night, so any potential headlights never get used. Actually, now that I think of it, the eyes often light up - maybe Zoids can use their eyes as headlights? For the 'cockpit' question: studying models could be good, although they won't have great levels of detail. The various anime series show cockpit interiors frequently, although the only time I remember a game showing in-cockpit pictures is Full Metal Crash (which actually looks fairly similar to your example render). The only times I recall seeing an in-cockpit view in the Battle Story are here, here and here (2 Deathsaurers and a Command Wolf AC, all of them head-cockpits not gunner seats). Cockpits probably vary a lot between different Zoids, though - for instance, Bit Cloud seems to be able to send any command to his Liger Zero just by pushing and twisting those two levers As for the width, cockpits in the actual models do tend to be fairly cramped, and very few are designed for more than one person (Blade Liger being an anime-inspired exception). For the 'mouth' question: No, Shield Liger has never had a mouth cannon, but there is something circular in there - maybe a speaker for the roar?
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ZPOC
Jan 22, 2014 11:43:00 GMT -5
Post by rhasputin on Jan 22, 2014 11:43:00 GMT -5
Oh my bad. I thought the ears on a shield liger faced forward like the ears on the blade liger. On the HMM blade liger kit, it looks almost like there -are- meant to be lights inside the ears.
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ZPOC
Jan 22, 2014 12:28:50 GMT -5
Post by lordofdragons on Jan 22, 2014 12:28:50 GMT -5
Maethius: Thanks. Concerning the head-lights this is a possibility. I'll see what kind of placement works out once I have the rest of the model unwrapped. This guy is hell to unwrap properly Concerning the console on the lap I see where you are going with that. What kind of "physical" controls would this be? I figured for the current configuration that the left stick is movement and turning (maybe boost/one-eighty on the buttons), the right stick aiming weapons (fire/cycling on the buttons) and the pedals maybe something like jump/duck/whatever? Have you something like shield controls in mind? Or something else I don't know about? Falcarius: Nice find. One could hide the lights in the ears flipping them out for use. Looks maybe silly but using that video as an idea this might be a possibility. And yes, total design failure on those lights there. Now I know why I could not find them... they are hidden . Concerning the use of lights, didn't the animé makers move zoids at times through dark caverns, buildings or places like this? Or have they only used open places in the animé? Lights certainly would give you away but I think with all these radar systems lights would be the least of your concerns but. If the cockpit gives enough lights I don't know. If you have light in a cockpit like this it certainly would shine outside through the canopy. Might work for your very close environment. I've got to experiment with that. Concerning FMC that's an interesting find. I played the Zoids Struggle which that game has been based upon. Never tried it out yet though since Dolphin can be quite jumpy with Zoids games. They recently made though an update so it might fix things. The cockpit view though seems to be a red-pen idea as I never found screenshots of said game with this cockpit view. Interesting is though the placement of the lights on the support frames. Might be something to consider. Concerning the mouth I don't know anymore where I figured out this to be a gun. Maybe a game sprite or an animé still. Anyways if it's not a gun I'll remove it. Reduces the amount of unwrapping required @all If we are already at the topic of controls there is something I never figured out so far: are Zoids just machines or "living"? There's this core thing I've seen and it seems important but I couldn't make heads or tail out this. Can Zoids pilot on their own? Does the pilot have to give every order? Or can be let it move to a target zone and concentrate on shooting or other kind of maneuvers?
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ZPOC
Jan 22, 2014 14:59:17 GMT -5
Post by rhasputin on Jan 22, 2014 14:59:17 GMT -5
There's a lot of cockpit shots in New century zero that might help you. I remember Bit Cloud using a control that had a handle like the handle of a shovel (lol) that slid back and forth on a console, and rotated.
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ZPOC
Jan 22, 2014 21:45:45 GMT -5
Post by Falcarius on Jan 22, 2014 21:45:45 GMT -5
@all If we are already at the topic of controls there is something I never figured out so far: are Zoids just machines or "living"? There's this core thing I've seen and it seems important but I couldn't make heads or tail out this. Can Zoids pilot on their own? Does the pilot have to give every order? Or can be let it move to a target zone and concentrate on shooting or other kind of maneuvers? In nearly all storylines, Zoids are living beings in robot bodies piloted by humans/humanoids. How much this is expressed, though, varies a lot. Bit's Liger Zero is probably the best example in the anime of a Zoid with a mind of its own, particularly in the earliest episodes where it likes to run around madly and smack Bit in the face with his harness For a Battle Story perspective (the storyline I'm most familiar with), the Zoids Bible describes the control system as sending simple signals of the proper voltage to the Zoid Core, which interprets them as nerve signals and passes them on to the rest of the body (or to man-made parts via artificial nerves). However, there's also some kind of mental link involved, which can allow the pilot to tell the Zoid roughly what to do without even touching the controls (Ray and Wolff use this in Official Fan Book 3), but can have some nasty effects on the pilot if the Zoid's will or brutality is particularly strong (for instance, the Organoid System in Fan Book 2). Zoids can also disobey the commands sent by the cockpit controls if they have a strong enough will (again, Zoids with Organoid Systems) or are terrified (I sometimes think of Combat System Freezes as Zoids chickening out of battles). This is why Zoidians consider it important to have a strong bond with their Zoids ( Official Fan Book EX 5 is a good example of this). This shouldn't apply to Blox, since they use man-made, non-living cores, although the Chimeras apparently have minds of their own anyway. That should give you a pretty decent idea of the Battle Story perspective - too bad each different universe has a different idea on how independent Zoids are (for example, the Zoids in the UK comics seem to have no will of their own, but can still affect the minds of their pilots).
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ZPOC
Jan 23, 2014 8:15:24 GMT -5
Post by lordofdragons on Jan 23, 2014 8:15:24 GMT -5
@all If we are already at the topic of controls there is something I never figured out so far: are Zoids just machines or "living"? There's this core thing I've seen and it seems important but I couldn't make heads or tail out this. Can Zoids pilot on their own? Does the pilot have to give every order? Or can be let it move to a target zone and concentrate on shooting or other kind of maneuvers? In nearly all storylines, Zoids are living beings in robot bodies piloted by humans/humanoids. How much this is expressed, though, varies a lot. Bit's Liger Zero is probably the best example in the anime of a Zoid with a mind of its own, particularly in the earliest episodes where it likes to run around madly and smack Bit in the face with his harness For a Battle Story perspective (the storyline I'm most familiar with), the Zoids Bible describes the control system as sending simple signals of the proper voltage to the Zoid Core, which interprets them as nerve signals and passes them on to the rest of the body (or to man-made parts via artificial nerves). However, there's also some kind of mental link involved, which can allow the pilot to tell the Zoid roughly what to do without even touching the controls (Ray and Wolff use this in Official Fan Book 3), but can have some nasty effects on the pilot if the Zoid's will or brutality is particularly strong (for instance, the Organoid System in Fan Book 2). Zoids can also disobey the commands sent by the cockpit controls if they have a strong enough will (again, Zoids with Organoid Systems) or are terrified (I sometimes think of Combat System Freezes as Zoids chickening out of battles). This is why Zoidians consider it important to have a strong bond with their Zoids ( Official Fan Book EX 5 is a good example of this). This shouldn't apply to Blox, since they use man-made, non-living cores, although the Chimeras apparently have minds of their own anyway. That should give you a pretty decent idea of the Battle Story perspective - too bad each different universe has a different idea on how independent Zoids are (for example, the Zoids in the UK comics seem to have no will of their own, but can still affect the minds of their pilots). That's interesting. This would open up potential game mechanics by having something like a friendship value as pokémon for example uses it (if not high enough it can be disobeyant). I like the idea of linking the system freeze to a Zoid deliberately cutting off the connection as a form of self-protection. I wanted to ask about this system freeze myself next but you came first. This gives born to ideas never explored in any Zoid game I've seen so far. Looks like that topic has more in store than meets the eye in the first place.
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ZPOC
Jan 23, 2014 15:53:57 GMT -5
Post by Maethius on Jan 23, 2014 15:53:57 GMT -5
Have you ever had the chance to play in the mechwarrior battletech arcade pods? They look kind of (well, exactly) like this: and this: My friends and I used to play all the time in Seattle. The lower bank of controls shown is the radar with a pair of MFD's (Multi-Function Displays), that could be configured to the taste of the pilot (weapons, damage, coolant, com/nav, etc). I think that would be a pretty logical way to approach a Zoid cockpit setup, es the cartoons show most of the interior of a Zoid's cockpit is a form of 360 projected display, these would give a wide selection of physical controls that can adapt on the fly. In controlling the game, the direction of your 'mech was controlled by the foot petals, speed by the throttle, jumps by a central petal, and the joystick controlled the entire view (torso turns and elevation). I recall target switching via the hat on the stick as well, so you could run to the left, aim to the right, and lock your missiles onto enemy 'Mech #3 while using lasers and cannons on 'Mech #1 by keeping it in your crosshairs. Oh, here is the interactive pilot manual for the actual game. You can click around the cockpit diagram and see how they set up their controls: Battletech Operations Manual
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ZPOC
Jan 23, 2014 16:14:30 GMT -5
Post by lordofdragons on Jan 23, 2014 16:14:30 GMT -5
Have you ever had the chance to play in the mechwarrior battletech arcade pods? They look kind of (well, exactly) like this: and this: My friends and I used to play all the time in Seattle. The lower bank of controls shown is the radar with a pair of MFD's (Multi-Function Displays), that could be configured to the taste of the pilot (weapons, damage, coolant, com/nav, etc). I think that would be a pretty logical way to approach a Zoid cockpit setup, es the cartoons show most of the interior of a Zoid's cockpit is a form of 360 projected display, these would give a wide selection of physical controls that can adapt on the fly. In controlling the game, the direction of your 'mech was controlled by the foot petals, speed by the throttle, jumps by a central petal, and the joystick controlled the entire view (torso turns and elevation). I recall target switching via the hat on the stick as well, so you could run to the left, aim to the right, and lock your missiles onto enemy 'Mech #3 while using lasers and cannons on 'Mech #1 by keeping it in your crosshairs. Oh, here is the interactive pilot manual for the actual game. You can click around the cockpit diagram and see how they set up their controls: Battletech Operations ManualNo, I never had access to such arcades nor did I even play a battle mech game at all. That's what arcades still have what PC gaming doesn't have yet. But that's fine. That control scheme sounds a lot like tank game control schemes. I hate the broken controls on arcade style zoids games as it has been always a fight against the controls not the down right stupid enemy AI. Especially the turning had been a huge nuisance. That control scheme though has some interesting aspects, especially the multi-locking. Just had some control schemes popping around my head reading that. I think you got me onto an idea there. I'll have to try this out once I have fixed the stuff on the game engine I'm on right now.
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vaan
Private
Posts: 4
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ZPOC
Jan 27, 2014 9:10:43 GMT -5
Post by vaan on Jan 27, 2014 9:10:43 GMT -5
Having seen this post and being very interested in the finished article i thought id help out with the cockpit design i screen capped this image from the anime show on YouTube. The movement is controlled via 2 joysticks/handholds on either side of the pilot and pushing them forward and back controlled movement and i imagine moving one more than than other would result in the zoid turning also to note in this particular zoid there is a second seat behind the main pilot with a computer in the back of the pilots seat allowing the passenger some minor instruments to help the pilot much like a fighter jet. I have also managed to screen capture a pilot view of the front control panel which would house the readouts for the terrain, zoid state and enemy's in view. Also to note during the anime the cockpit glass also acted as a sort of HUD allowing the pilot to view the outside world and having the targeting display there.
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ZPOC
Jan 27, 2014 12:02:56 GMT -5
Post by Maethius on Jan 27, 2014 12:02:56 GMT -5
It is also important to temper anime design with player functionality. A stick-and-throttle system would be far more practical for a player (and a real machine) because a stick allows the machine to alter course by 360 degrees while controlling advance/retreat. Using a mouse/keyboard in Mechwarrior let you set your speed using 1-0 keys, control direction (also throttle) with directional arrows, and freelook your aiming reticle; a requirement when picking out targets while moving in one direction and shooting in another. So, really, lordofdragons, you need to decide on both a control scheme for practicality and a visual theme for aesthetic.
The difficulty with a Zoid is that it is capable of feral movements and it can carry the firepower of a squad of tanks/air cav. Sentience may help or hinder (I would allow the Zoid to possess the ability to spontaneously dodge or lunge, but only if the player isn't issuing movement commands at that moment. This way the player could throttle all the way up and point the Liger in the direction desired and focus on guiding weapons, and let the machine do the little leaps to avoid incoming fire automatically.
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