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ZPOC
Nov 13, 2015 0:15:06 GMT -5
Post by Maethius on Nov 13, 2015 0:15:06 GMT -5
If you can find a copy, Mechwarrior 3 was a PC title (was it still Activision back then?) MW3 was a simulator, so the way you avoid control constipation is hotkey assignments. If you can, give it a look.
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ZPOC
Nov 13, 2015 12:04:01 GMT -5
Post by lordofdragons on Nov 13, 2015 12:04:01 GMT -5
You mean something like [[ this ]] ?
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ZPOC
Nov 14, 2015 17:06:05 GMT -5
Post by Maethius on Nov 14, 2015 17:06:05 GMT -5
Yup, that's the one. I don't see Zoids necessarily being that complicated, but as it is a piloted mech game, there could be a lot of similarities.
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Post by lordofdragons on Nov 15, 2015 7:28:46 GMT -5
I'll keep this in mind and experiment a bit with it when I get some spare time. Right now knee deep in AI work and that's difficult matter
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ZPOC
May 3, 2016 16:00:08 GMT -5
Post by lordofdragons on May 3, 2016 16:00:08 GMT -5
Another ZPOC as a little break from my main project. I'm attaching this one to what Maethius talked about some time ago about multi-monitor use of Zoids and weapon use. Feel free to give your opinion about this. Had some idea how this could work and put a first version into the ZPOC. I do not want to make it complicated like the mech warrior game example as I'm not so fond of dancing all over my keyboard. So I went for a configurable monitor layout. You can switch the active monitor and switch the views in them. You can adjust all monitors you have in your pilot station. This way you can adjust the monitors to your liking or combat situation. What goes for weapon handling I decided to mix in something similar to what Unreal Tournament had. There you had larger vehicles more than one player can mount. For this test I nicked a model from a PS2 game as this is faster for showing the idea (the one from this topic). If this turns into a real project this would be obviously replaced with a self made model. This is pretty simple since all Zoids and Weapons are set up using XML files. So it's modder friendly. I'm using this Zoid since it has 3 pilot stations according to Iron Bible. Besides you see also a new cockpit. I call this type the "half closed cockpit" somewhere between the open one from the liger and the closed one of the geno. The zoid has 3 pilot stations for players to mount and individually control (defined in XML files so any zoid can be created this way). The head station works the same as until now. It controls movement in addition to weapons. All other stations can only control weapons. Each station has a set of weapons assigned to them which I call the "fixed station weapons". These are weapons that are only useful to be controlled by this specific station. For example a gun under the chin or inside the mouth is only of use to the head station facing into the same direction. Likewise guns pointing backwards are of interest to the tail gunner station but not really useful to anybody else. So this sort builds weapon groups as mentioned by Maethius with the difference that these groups are determined by the zoid and his armament not personal desire. In addition the head station can control weapons from other stations if those are not mounted by a player. For this to work all ranged weapons define now a "shot camera" so you can use weapons facing in entirely different directions. This supports various use situations: 1) You pilot the Zoid alone. All weapons are assigned to the head station you located in. You fire your main front facing weapons "from the hip" looking through the canopy at enemies ahead. 2) You pilot the Zoid alone. You try to get away from a nasty Zoid on your heels. You look through the canopy to see where to run at while firing back facing weapons using the "shot camera" on your monitor. 3) You pilot the Zoid together with two co-players. You concentrate on moving around the battle field staying in safe spots as good as possible while the player in the back station rains bullets down at nearby zoids while the player in the tail station keeps your butt clear. So this system allows for some interesting play situations. Operating a Zoid all by yourself is as well supported as is operating a Zoid with a group of players. Imagine a group of players deciding to make a raid deep into enemy territory using a moving fortress while another group of players puts there money on operating individual Zoids to attack from various angles. Last but not least upgrades on the weapon definition. You can now define charging weapons or spin sustaining weapons like a gattling gun. I did not find the regular Red Horn armament in the extracted files so I went ahead with that gattling gun. I made it more realistic than other Zoids games where gattling guns are next to useless. This one here has good fire rate and is reasonably accurate. Don't underestimate this puppy when it is pointed at you Comments are welcome as always. If you have ideas for what I should put in next let me know. So here goes nothing.
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ZPOC
May 3, 2016 16:27:55 GMT -5
Post by Hanyoutai on May 3, 2016 16:27:55 GMT -5
The multiple monitor concept is definitely interesting, and one that'd be fun to explore~ However, I feel like your POV in the game being just a tiny box in the middle is a little restrictive. The Liger works a lot better, IMO. An alternative option would possibly be to expand it to a wide screen window that spans the whole top of the screen, and try to put maps into that empty space on the sides of the console. Something that gives a better field of vision and doesn't feel so boxed in.
The added touches to weapon types is a definite refresher. You're right, it's a real shame that gats always end up being a functionally useless weapon in 3D Zoids games. Especially as it makes some of the most popular Zoids like Shadow Fox a completely incompetent machine. While I think most weapons shouldn't necessarily be a 1HKO I'm also not a big fan of weapons that exist just to be skipped over because they'd never be useful. It seems like there's a decent balance.
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ZPOC
May 3, 2016 17:49:01 GMT -5
Post by lordofdragons on May 3, 2016 17:49:01 GMT -5
That's a possible idea. You think about the large monitor for half closed cockpit (Red Horn) only or also for fully closed (Geno)? For me personally the view did not feel too narrow. I think it provides a visual and handling difference between for example a light-weight and weaker armored Liger (wide view) and a heavily armored Red Horn with solid cockpit (narrower view, kinda like a tank). I've got an idea how this could look like. I'll give it a try. That's changed in a matter of minutes.
How do the others see this? Do you prefer the larger difference in visual and handling difference between different Zoid types or a more unified and larger screen monitor?
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ZPOC
May 3, 2016 18:36:44 GMT -5
Post by Hanyoutai on May 3, 2016 18:36:44 GMT -5
I love the idea of different cockpit styles for different Zoids but I don't think any should be limited to less than 30% of your gameplay screen. Ideally it should be the majority (60-70% minimum.) What it is intended to have in immersive gameplay gets lost in how disorienting and claustrophobic it feels.
Taking some of the multi-focus aspect out and compacting it into a more natural viewing method would be ideal. For example, switching the 3 monitors to share the same panoramic view and make them the same size/height. This would remove a lot of the disorientation. Locating enemy Zoids could use the sonar-styled radar screen that was on the right side, which I think would be a great way to go about it. It'd be more natural if it were smaller and lower on the screen, kinda like looking at your gauges when you're driving a car. The larger map could probably be compacted into something smaller, too. Stuff that's designed to be glanced at, but not pull focus from the gameplay itself.
I also thought that the back canopy was an excellent design all the way around. You still had all of your large screens, and could glance down at them when necessary, but you still had the option of being able to see clearly what's going on around you.
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ZPOC
May 3, 2016 19:04:13 GMT -5
Post by lordofdragons on May 3, 2016 19:04:13 GMT -5
Let's see. I tried a quick version 2 of the monitor layout. I'm a bit limited in what I can do before the cockpit clips outside the topside of the head. Not much leeway there. In this version here I've enlarged the main view monitor by around 40% while reducing the size of the side monitors. The extra free space I used now to pack in another set of monitors somewhat smaller to make the look a bit more interesting (not so same-sized). I think I'll remove the orientation indicator altogether. Went along while copying from geno in the first place. I don't think you still need it since you have a good feeling of how you are oriented in the world (not like the geno where this really seems important to have). First image is the version from the video. Second image is the modified version. You mentioned a panoramic view. Not sure if you mean the one used by the geno? This one is using three cameras each feeding to one of the three monitors. Not sure if this is works on the horn where you can peek out of the eyes. I could imagine though maybe a layout where the screen in the middle is of the format 2:1 . This would enlarge the view "width" while reducing the view "height" but might still feel better since it's wider (or at least "feels" wider). The side monitors could be moved in a row underneath the view monitor. Could work. I need to try out this version to see how this feels.
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Post by Hanyoutai on May 3, 2016 22:05:00 GMT -5
When I was talking about the panoramic view, I meant the opening part of the video where the radar/map screen has different views. Like, when you see the Shield Liger, it just vanishes inbetween monitors. Maybe it'd be easier if you're used to the game, but to me it seemed like it'd make it hard to orient yourself even if you 'know' where it is at.
The updated version looks a lot nicer. It feels a lot more up close, which makes it feel more immersive. I also like the added monitors, they add quite a bit, and for some reason having the extras kind of emphasizes the 'tilt' of them a bit more, which helps draws focus to the central monitor.
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Post by Vig on May 4, 2016 7:05:23 GMT -5
I felt so excited watching that video, I absolutely LOVE the cockpit of the red horn with the eye windows. I would be very very happy to see more like that. Really feels like you're in there,especially with the up/down movement when running. Out of any zoids game out there yours is still the only one such a detailed cockpit view. The screens I do like, I would never complain. If I did say anything is maybe less of a gap between screens like mentioned a zoid almost directly in-front like that probably shouldn't disappear between the gaps. Maybe thinner frames and closer together? It would look a bit more zoidy futuristic too. Saying that though being different is ok, nothing wrong with that. If you changed nothing I would still be happy. They are still awesome and do what you think is best/whatever works.
As for multiple pilots on the zoid, traditional zoiders I'm sure would love that. Once again something which has never been done in a zoid game. Very cool.
For the liger zoids, can you make them roar/Do the roar movement? Always wanted to see what it looks like inside the cockpit when a zoid roars , all of a sudden be looking up toward the sky sort of thing.
I am enjoying the entertaining aspect of your videos,and the way you ruthlessly destroy your zoids in various ways. Always makes me giggle.
Please Keep it up! , I was worried maybe you had stopped. I am happy to see you continue with this. I would love to have a run around in it one day, even if in-complete, as others would too I'm sure.
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ZPOC
May 4, 2016 11:27:21 GMT -5
Post by lordofdragons on May 4, 2016 11:27:21 GMT -5
When I was talking about the panoramic view, I meant the opening part of the video where the radar/map screen has different views. Like, when you see the Shield Liger, it just vanishes inbetween monitors. Maybe it'd be easier if you're used to the game, but to me it seemed like it'd make it hard to orient yourself even if you 'know' where it is at. The updated version looks a lot nicer. It feels a lot more up close, which makes it feel more immersive. I also like the added monitors, they add quite a bit, and for some reason having the extras kind of emphasizes the 'tilt' of them a bit more, which helps draws focus to the central monitor. I see now what you mean. It's a bit a peculiar set up in the geno there. I'll drop in first a quick drawing so it's easier to speak about the problem. That's supposed to be the geno head... sort of. The blue dots are the places the cameras are attached to the model. The blue lines show the view area covered by the camera. It's not fully correct since each camera has a field-of-view of 60 degrees not 90 as this image suggests. So as you can imagine a zoid can end up in the dead area between two cameras. This is the reason the zoid vanishes and reappears. The reason why I chose 60 degrees is that with wider fields-of-view the view feels strange or even disorienting. With a field of view of 60 degrees it feels more like watching out a window than onto a strange monitor image with higher values. That said this had been my first try at creating a closed geno cockpit. It's by no means the final solution. I'm open for ideas there. One solution would be to stick to 60 degrees for each camera but changing their layout so they connect to each other. This would neatless cover 180 degrees but does not allow to look further back than straight left/right. But maybe this feels better. It's worth a try. Vig : A roar animation, hein? Sounds interesting. Let's see how this works out. Concerning the monitors I think too they could be reworked. I once did a little mock-up but never went ahead with it. What you think about it?
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ZPOC
May 4, 2016 13:14:40 GMT -5
Post by Maethius on May 4, 2016 13:14:40 GMT -5
It is a very tricky situation that you are doing well with. In a REAL cockpit you would just swing your head around and could have monitors to either side of you. Another option would be to have one large, wrap-around monitor as your main and the others superimpose on that screen like a popup window. You could even drag it around and resize it to meet your tastes.
Looking great so far!
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ZPOC
May 4, 2016 13:22:11 GMT -5
Post by Snowflake on May 4, 2016 13:22:11 GMT -5
It is a very tricky situation that you are doing well with. In a REAL cockpit you would just swing your head around and could have monitors to either side of you. Another option would be to have one large, wrap-around monitor as your main and the others superimpose on that screen like a popup window. You could even drag it around and resize it to meet your tastes. Looking great so far! Yeah, especially with VR games becoming so popular, the ability to look at real monitors around you is a thing now. But some of us will always prefer proper screen games, so.. Honestly in the end I think the best thing is to let the player customize it themselves.
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ZPOC
May 4, 2016 13:50:18 GMT -5
Post by lordofdragons on May 4, 2016 13:50:18 GMT -5
There's actually another point of view for this problem. Personally I would prefer monitors and screens to be close to my line-of-sight while in action. Having to look around to getting info from my monitors would not feel me comfortable. I prefer having the important info around without having to loose my target from sight. That said auxiliary stuff not required for engaging a target could be well placed off-sight. VR has anyway a much bigger problem at hand than it would solve: interaction. You can better look around but trying to target something or use monitors would be a problem. Even with proper input-gloves you have troubles touching empty space where you see a monitor in VR or grasping a joystick where there is empty space. Now about that super-monitor, that would be simple to do with the current scripts and engine. You would need an extra key to sort of "lock" onto the monitor so it can be controlled like a real pc ( example video). I'm not sure though if this would not turn out to be complicated to use. What you think? Would you actually want to deal with a set up like this?
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