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Jan 27, 2014 15:55:41 GMT -5
Post by lordofdragons on Jan 27, 2014 15:55:41 GMT -5
vaan: Thanks for the info. I came across those images already which is where I took the rough shape of the front console from while mergin in some elements I found in other places. I never understood though the two-throttle system since you have very limited input possibilities with those. In my opinion two joysticks have more input possibilities (360° analog + twisting + >3 buttons). But if you put in a neural interface type control system this argument could be voided I guess. Maethius: That's correct. I'm trying to figure out first how the model kits and animé presented the cockpit. From there on I muster up than a control scheme. Actually I have something in mind but I can't test it right now since I decided to split the entire test-bed into own project files and modifying the complex game scripts from my main game project into simpler scripts as only needed by this test-bed requires some work. I could have started from scratch but why throw out sophisticated conversation and character control scripts if you have them already EDIT: Side-question I nearly forgot. I adjusted the size of the shieldy on a generic human model. I would like to check if my scales are actually sound or way off. Somebody knows what kind of size a shieldy is supposed to have? I assume model kits come with a scale value so the real size could be calculated from the model kit size.
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Jan 28, 2014 13:59:03 GMT -5
Post by Maethius on Jan 28, 2014 13:59:03 GMT -5
Fun fact about model kit sizes: there are usually TWO. The physical, scale dimensions of the model are often different than the printed descriptions. When I build my customs I use a measuring tape I created by measuring the entire OJR line and treating pilots as being 2 meters tall. I find that some kits are off by a pretty wide margin, so you will have to decide which set of stats to follow: real scale, or written scale?
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Jan 28, 2014 16:36:04 GMT -5
Post by lordofdragons on Jan 28, 2014 16:36:04 GMT -5
Which one you feel are more sound to you? I have no kit or written instruction to judge by myself so that's why I ask. I scaled my model up to fit a 1.8m human in the cockpit area. But that obviously depends on how large the cockpit and the space around the pilot is. In my model there is not much free space towards the canopy so I think it can't get any smaller than this.
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Jan 29, 2014 12:30:12 GMT -5
Post by Maethius on Jan 29, 2014 12:30:12 GMT -5
Actually, Pheno's has a board with all of the original toy stats: Zoids stats boardRPZ-03 Shield Liger Lion Type Height - 9.0m Length - 21.6m Speed - 250 kph Weight - 92.0t Parts - 65 Caps - 25 Pilots - 1 Hardpoints - 10 (standard size) Motor - 1AA Battery Price - 1980¥ Sale Month - July Sale Year - 1987 -Laser Sabres x2 -Twin Acceleration Beam Gun -Tri-Barrel Shock Cannon -Missile Pods x2 -Radiators x6 -Coolant Sensors -Shield Generator Zoid Overview - Shield Ligers are the belated (yet effective) counters for the Empire's Sabre Tigers - they exceed Sabre Tigers' abilities in all aspects and can even generate an E-Shield for extra defensive purposes although this puts a huge drain on their energy sources. Most of their weapons can be concealed to lower air resistance when moving. Kit Overview - Once activated, Shield Liger will walk forwards and open and close its mouth. The head shields, missile pod 'arms' and tail can be manually positioned and there is also a fold-out weapon concealed on its back. Shield Liger's basic structure and even some of its parts are shared with its Zenevas rival, Sabre Tiger.
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Jan 29, 2014 16:21:00 GMT -5
Post by lordofdragons on Jan 29, 2014 16:21:00 GMT -5
Thanks. Didn't know you had a section like this. I somehow have my difficulty with this forum software ^^; The stats themselves are interesting. The kits size is 9 x 21.6 x ? (height x length x width) and my models size is 9.7 x 20.2 x 6.4 . That's nearly equal. Not bad for guessing my way through all this . Side question. The radiations (6x) I presume those are the 2 shield flaps and the blue parts on the legs? I've seen with the HMM you can flip them off whereas the original (and games) you can not flip them open. What is the purpose of those 4 blue pieces? And 250 km/h is quite fast. That's nearly 69 m/s. I'm just trying to imagine how it would feel like to dash around in-game with such a speed :/
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Jan 30, 2014 13:13:34 GMT -5
Post by Maethius on Jan 30, 2014 13:13:34 GMT -5
I suppose that the original intent was for the Liger to project a 360-degree shield... the HMM would allow the deflectors to create a forward shield of greater strength while leaving the rear arc either weak or nonexistent.
On Zoid speeds, I've never taken the speed stats seriously, really. It's more of an, "ooooh, that would be really impressive! Make that number larger because the last cat could run 200 km/h!" kind of thing. I mean, really... T-rexes flying around at 300 km/h, Gil Vader exceeding MACH 3 (hell, even reaching MACH!) is horribly far fetched, especially when you see that Zoid GROUND units have more visible thrusters than AIR units do! It's the same kind of concept as the marvelous, "my Zoid is so agile that it can dodge all the shots from a Gatling cannon while it's charging you!" In general, there are very few machines that can move aside after ANY gun takes the shot.
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Jan 30, 2014 17:31:50 GMT -5
Post by lordofdragons on Jan 30, 2014 17:31:50 GMT -5
Will be interesting to figure out what kind of movement ability is reasonable. In Zoids Struggle the movement has been ridiculously fast. I mean according to the stats above that's 92 tons moving like Street Fighter Ryu :rofl: . The rotation momentum required to deal with that inertia alone would be insane. Finding a reasonable velocity is anyways going to be part of the project to see how FBMF feels like.
Concerning the dodging of bullets I would not put my money on dodging but more on the bullets hitting my mech on shallow angles. As far as I know zoids are supposed to be made out of some special metal. I forgot the name but it's quite durable if my memory doesn't play me tricks. Should let bullets ricochet off.
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Jan 31, 2014 11:13:22 GMT -5
Post by Maethius on Jan 31, 2014 11:13:22 GMT -5
I recall this as well, probably something creative like Zi-Steel, Zoidium, etc. The funny thing is comparing a Zoid kit with a true scale 1/72 military model kit:
Shield Liger: Height - 9.0m Length - 21.6m Speed - 250 kph Weight - 92 tons
M1A1 Abrams Main Battle Tank: Height - 2.44 m Length (Gun forward) - 9.77 m Speed - 67 kph Weight - 61.3 tons
The real tank is 1/3 as tall (mind you, Zoids have legs as opposed to solid mass), 1/2 as long, and 75% of the weight. Speed? Well, its hard to compare legs to tracks, but we're still talking only 26% of the Zoid's speed.
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Jan 31, 2014 16:02:47 GMT -5
Post by lordofdragons on Jan 31, 2014 16:02:47 GMT -5
67 km/h is though already not to be sneezed at. That's 18 m/s . Bolt beats that but he's also not sporting over 60 tons of body weight all by himself . In the end important is what is playable. The existing zoids games perform anyway rather poorly in terms of balancing slow and faster moving zoids. HP difference didn't cut it and the faster moving ones just always win over the slow moving ones unless you pull the old boss-with- -HP trick. That said I would assume the limbs of zoids would be the first thing to be shot apart. For example let's take your signature rexy and assume you can shot off one of its legs. Would not be much of a thread anymore with one leg left even if it has defense and HP going through the roof.
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Feb 3, 2014 12:08:50 GMT -5
Post by Maethius on Feb 3, 2014 12:08:50 GMT -5
Years ago... before computers ... I designed a Zoid tabletop (or entire living room floor) game that used the models as pieces. Basically, the player would keep track of the HP on any part of the kit with the exception of the torso, which had its own pool. The amount of HP for the pieces of the kit was based on tonnage and motor type. I wanted the unique construction of the Zoid kits to play into the rules. I had charts that basically allowed you to take your shots by targeting a specific rubber cap and deviating the shot. Say you targeted the hip bolt and rolled that you strayed 2cm and then forward (I believe we used 10-sided dice, a long time favorite of mine because of the ease of rolling percentiles), you could miss the thigh entirely and strike the Zoid in the midsection. Say a Zoid was categorized as having 4 hit points per piece; there were 5 pieces in a limb. If the attacking Zoid delivered 5 points of damage with a shot, the attacker would roll on the deviation chart and see what piece of the kit was struck and remove it. This had the potential to cripple a limb or blow it off right away! Kits with single piece limbs (like a Helcat) tracked differently; required "X" amount to completely destroy the limb. With a video game that kind of realism would be possible, but you would have to track the physics of every piece. IF that monumental task could be done, however, we could have some really interesting outcomes! Aimed shots would be everything.
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Feb 3, 2014 12:50:06 GMT -5
Post by lordofdragons on Feb 3, 2014 12:50:06 GMT -5
Let's just say "I've got my ideas" and an engine capable of dealing with it. I don't know if anybody remembers Trespasser or AvP but it serves as an inspiration point. That said localized damage systems are easy to pull off. What game devs typically fail at is getting the effects right. I just say Deus-Ex (1 not what came afterwards) for how it should be done right.
I get it from your description you came up with an elaborate damage system there so I guess you know quite a lot about zoids armaments, right? I've come across a Zoids wiki once but what they lacked has been a concise list of weapons and how they are supposed to work.
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Feb 4, 2014 11:37:37 GMT -5
Post by Maethius on Feb 4, 2014 11:37:37 GMT -5
When I started my Zoids addiction there were only toy kits, and I couldn't read Japanese! I built my own list of "logical" weapons when I first drafted my game. Eventually they released the NAR kits which translated their armament somewhat. From seeing the cartoons, I came to the conclusion that I would treat armament like I do with my own customs... examine real weapon systems and "Zoid-ize" them.
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Feb 5, 2014 12:47:33 GMT -5
Post by lordofdragons on Feb 5, 2014 12:47:33 GMT -5
So if I got this right your version of zoid weapons lined up with how they made the animé? So one could take those as reference to get a general idea? Or are only some of the seasons useful and others totally crazy and stupid?
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Feb 6, 2014 15:55:43 GMT -5
Post by Maethius on Feb 6, 2014 15:55:43 GMT -5
It's kind of hit and miss. As with a lot of anime, sometimes the creators just WANT a certain unit to win... to hell with backtory, stats , and science! In the end it sounds like your system is going to be all on play/feel. A more literal approach to Zoid weapons would be that they fall under three basic categories: A) light/support (machine guns, light lasers, mini-missiles, etc), B) main battery weapons (one-hit, one-kill... a Champion tank only has to his another tank ONCE with a 120mm smooth bore gun!), and C) tactical weapons (long range missiles, heavy artillery, etc.) Above and beyond all of those would be your super weapons, but they don't really fit into the context of most games. Let's face it, if Deathsaurer actually used its breath in a game, 99% of opponents struck by it would just vaporize!
In my game a Shield Liger had roughly 100 hit points divided up by body/limb/head, and each of those could be subdivided by parts. The mid-weight shock cannon from a Saber would deliver 10 points per barrel; a direct hit being enough to blow off the leg. The smaller Saber guns would deal about 5 points of damage.
I guess in the end it depends on what you are looking to simulate; realism or rock-em-sock-em action?
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Feb 12, 2014 19:09:12 GMT -5
Post by lordofdragons on Feb 12, 2014 19:09:12 GMT -5
Got side-tracked with work and other tasks so late reply is late.
I would say a mix of the two sounds interesting. Fully realistic sounds tricky since the design of zoids looks to me more to be inclined on the look than being physically possible. It sounds interesting to explore the more realistic road and to see how such a mech really would feel like with the illogical parts cut out. On the other hand some arcade elements could be interesting to examine too. With the FBMF system of mine the realistic approach is though more reasonable so that's my first goal. That said it depends on what you call arcade. If you refer to something like Zoids Struggle then no, that's ridiculous and not what I'm planing to explore. I'm thus more interested in a more realistic approach.
Concerning DeathSaur though it's the old game-dev story. A big boom-stick is typically balanced with limitation like recharging, not able to aim well, longer wind-up time resulting in large break-windows and so forth. I'm for example your typical sniper *Watch your language!*: fast, agile and invisible. So a big boom-stick can be properly implemented either as boss-fight or in a multiplayer scenario like the Leviathan in UT3. Actually a DeathSaur would work fairly well as a Leviathan replacement. The existing zoids game just horribly failed in that regard. DeathSaur in Zoids Struggle is sort of a match winner before you even start the round (especially with those ninja-blades).
Anyways... I put together a first version of the POC in the last couple of days. The model is obviously unfinished, not unwrapped (except for some places), with no normal map (thus looking weird on metal) and with placeholder color in places but it's a start and enough for a first test. This way I can also start to apply the stuff you told me in this topic so far. Just a little summary what's going on in the video.
First some size check. That's the shieldy in original size according to the specs you showed me. Not bad of a size if you jog around this guy. I keep it at real size and with real weights to get correct physics and interaction behavior. The colors are individual textures in the skin so you can color tint those parts freely without needing extra textures. You could though also just put a single texture for all and make this guy camouflaged if that's what you like. I've got my plans for "splitting up" the model.
Then inside the cockpit. I have the idea of a "get-in" animation but I didn't have the time yet to make one. The cockpit is fully existing so no fake cockpit or other tricks. The canopy is an actual glass texture so it does reflect. Nice reflections on the glass from the outside but maybe a bit distracting on the inside. I plan to use the FBMF technique from my game project on this one here to see how it works.
Next in the video some control tests. I put up the controls so one can move and fire at the same time. The pilot (stole the model from my game for testing that's why it's unfitting) is quickly animated to replicate the movements you do. Simulated three weapons including the missile pod swinging open to get a feeling for the shooting mechanism. The first weapon is actually supposed to be this hidden top-side beam cannon thing the shieldy has. It's not modelled yet hence why it's air-shooting there. Shooting position and orientation is directly linked to the model so moving produces inaccuracy without the need for extra coding it. Also did a quick test of the shield flaps. Forgot to add the shield model. Not fully clear on how it looks like. Games and the animé seem to have different ideas about shieldy shields.
In the end some day/night test. That's where I'm gonna test your head-light ideas. Maybe the cockpit interior could do with some small lights here and there to locate switches and buttons. Not sure about that yet. The interioir certainly needs a texture of some sort.
Gonna test some more stuff when I get the time. I've got certain ideas I want to test with this just to see how they would work like.
Comments are always welcome. It's a POC after all so messing around with ideas somehow.
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